Camper mains!

Hi guys
another newbie here with usual questions I guess... but can't seem to find an answer!
I have recently purchased an import camper but can't work out the elecs! It has a uk blue mains 240v hook-up socket
but in battery compartment says 12v & 110v! could it be 240v in or do the japanese use blue plugs for 110v and need to carry 110v transformer?
Any advice appreciated.javascript:emoticonp('')

Excellent site by the way!

Hi and welcome!

We also have a 94 Reimo 2.8. If yours has got UK style mains sockets inside, I would guess that it's been converted to UK 240V spec, but I don't know how you'd go about proving it. If in doubt, I guess a qualified sparky is in order.

I can take a photo of the mains unit in ours at the weekend if it helps - it's an Elektromat, I think. I assume the 110V and 240V ones are different.

Cheers,

Rob

thanks for the welcome rob.
thats what I can't work out, the external socket (blue and white) has clearly been on it a long time....but there are no 240 sockets inside, only flat pin usa style, which I think are 110v! the mains unit, like yours, is elektromat and has 230v written on it.....but there I run out of clues.
I have had a sparky have a quick look at it but he had no test meter with him, I also feel it needs a sparky who knows about campers.
whoops.......more money gone

Hi,
Japan and the USA both use 110V electrics. The "Blue socket" can be used for both 110 and 240, so it doesn't tell you much, I'm afraid.

Inside the van there will be an AC to DC converter to convert mains to 12V. It should have circuit breakers and will probably have connections to a mains outlet, too, so you can use a mains appliance when you're on a hookup.

The converter will have been 110V and the socket(s) Japanese style 2-pin ones. Some converters will take either 110V or 240V (automatically switching) but most don't.

Changing from Japanese to UK involves changing any mains outlets and either changing the converter or adding a 240V to 110V adapter ahead of the existing unit.

If you still have Japanese sockets it seems unlikely you've been changed over, so maybe your mains converter is dual voltage? Have a close look and see if it says anything about auto-switching or has a jumper to move between 240V and 110V inputs.

It's just possible, though it seems unikely, that there is/was a 240V mains unit installed with a 110 to 240 converter but whatever you have should be clearly labeled to say what it's input and output voltages and currents (amps) are. I see you have a Reimo, so maybe the original install had a European mains unit instead of an American/Japanese one?

You say in your first post that it says 110V and in your second, 230V... The first seems more likely!! Do you have more than one converter box?

Cheers,
W.

hi w, thanks for detailed reply. i cannot see any sign of a converter but it definately says 220 on mains unit with rocker switch and 110 down to 12v on transformer by battery. I will get a sparky to test it out for me and possibly convert all to 240....but fridge is 110....new fridge then?
All will have to wait now though, alternator has just packed up and they are making noises about it costing £300 plus! If I had any hair I would pull it out.

cheers

Trevor.

Very often just the diode pack needs replacing on the alternator, just a few pounds and any specialist electrical place will have them.

Whatever happened to Lucas places?

Hi,
Yeah. +1 to Clive's comment- There's a Bosch-certified repair place not far from me which would almost certainly be able to tackle the job- I expect there's one near you, too, wherever you are! The working parts of units like starter motors, solenoids and alternators are usually generic, it's the housings and gears that make them vehicle-specific. Alternator problems are most often brushes or diodes and those should be easily replaceable.

Secondly- it sounds to me as though you have a 220V rated isolator attached to a 110V transformer. These voltages are nominal (ie 220V and 240V are used interchangeably in this situation, as are 110V/120V), so all you should need to do is:

1) Install a 240V/120V transformer after the isolator switch but before the fridge and the AC/DC adapter that charges your leisure battery. Fridge will now run from stepped down Mains.

2) Replace your mains sockets inside the van with UK style ones and connect them to the output of the isolator, where the input to the new 240V/120V transformer is now attached.

..and 3) confirm you don't have an inverter installed, to provide 110V power to those sockets from your leisure batteries when you don't have the hookup connected. If you do then you'll need to disconnect it and come back to ask further questions about what to do with it later!!! :-)

Cheers,
W.

thanks again guys. what a learning curve.... interesting though! looking forward to having the time to use it once i have got it all sorted.

trevor.

Hi uwink,

Have you got this sorted?

Cheers,
W.

I just bought a Hiace Cruising Cabin conversion and there are probably all the usual problems needing sorting before I get to really enjoy trips away in it . . .

Reading this thread I think I get what's required -

1. change the japanese hook up socket in the side bay external locker for a blue three pin one
2. fit inside the van where this 240v mains enters the vehicle a 240-120v step down transformer
3. take a lead Prior to this step down to the 240v socket fitted where the current 110-120v sockets are

questions . . .

1. what is the name of the type of blue three pin socket used as camper hook ups in the UK?
2. there are a wide range of 240-110v step down transformers available, is there a great brand you can trust and what rating is best - they come in assorted VA ratings and equally various prices . . .
3. do I need to fit a RCD fuse board in the van to use 240v hook up mains?
4. My van has two engine batteries under a plate behind the passenger seat, a Huge Stowaway Pro Marine sealed 800 cranking leisure battery under the rear seat with a 110v-12v charger, and under the sink where there was seemingly once a low pressure camping gas bottle there are two traliing power terminals and a retraining area for another battery . . . any idea what this 4th battery would have been for??

thanks guys - your help is very much appreciated

Morning W.
Alternator problems.
I think it's sorted...keeping everything crossed.
I took it to a local garage who then removed alternator, took it to a specialist who replaced the regulator and said "all is working ok", it wasn't...all lights were now off but over 3 days it kept draining battery. I went back to garage who said it must be the battery. I then took camper to a specialist electrics company (similar to Lucas/Bosch) who put a meter on it and ok'd battery and then said the alternator is not charging and the draining the battery. I went back to original garage who then took it back to their "specialist". I received camper back this sat just gone, used it a couple of times and had a mate put his meter on it who confirms that it appears to be charging now! I will use it this week to test it out, luckily I only work 3 miles away so not too much of a problem if it fails again.
Hopefully can then move on to mains electric probs, I think I will go the same way as Django!

cheers

U.wink

Django-Wildheart wrote:

I just bought a Hiace Cruising Cabin conversion and there are probably all the usual problems needing sorting before I get to really enjoy trips away in it . . .

Reading this thread I think I get what's required -

1. change the japanese hook up socket in the side bay external locker for a blue three pin one
2. fit inside the van where this 240v mains enters the vehicle a 240-120v step down transformer
3. take a lead Prior to this step down to the 240v socket fitted where the current 110-120v sockets are

questions . . .

1. what is the name of the type of blue three pin socket used as camper hook ups in the UK?

Have a look at this kit:
http://www.justkampers.com/search2?location=shop&method=match_all&keywords=mains

They are sometimes referred to as "Commando" connectors, or IP44. Camping places will usually call them mains hookups, though...

Quote :

2. there are a wide range of 240-110v step down transformers available, is there a great brand you can trust and what rating is best - they come in assorted VA ratings and equally various prices . . .

I can't recommend a brand- the VA rating is equivalent to the Wattage that you need to pass through it, so for your purposes it just needs to be enough to run your Japanese 110v appliances- probably just the fridge and battery charger? Fridge might not even be 110V: mine is 12V-only.

Quote :

3. do I need to fit a RCD fuse board in the van to use 240v hook up mains?

Yes. Campers can be damp, lots of vibration, nice conductive metal to distribute current around the vehicle, rubber tyres to ensure the current doesn't run to ground unassisted...

Quote :

4. My van has two engine batteries under a plate behind the passenger seat, a Huge Stowaway Pro Marine sealed 800 cranking leisure battery under the rear seat with a 110v-12v charger, and under the sink where there was seemingly once a low pressure camping gas bottle there are two traliing power terminals and a retraining area for another battery . . . any idea what this 4th battery would have been for??

Guesswork: My Brother in law has a VW with two leisure batteries- one runs a coolbox and the other everything else, I would think that was the sort of setup your van once had... The fridge is the thing most likely to run your power down so it makes some sense to dedicate another battery to it.

Cheers,
W.

Thanks for being so meticulous in your reply WG - very much appreciated. I hadn't pondered if the fridge might not even be mains powered - but of course it may well not be . . . how do you reckon its best to check?

If the mains is literally only supplying the 110v-12v charger then, which is certainly a feasible possibility in a camper this small what VA rating should my step down 240-120v transformer be in your opinion?

I am looking at getting an eberspacher D2 airtronic fitted too, and they have a current draw rating too - to operate the fuel pump and also the glow plugs when starting up (I understand that the newer eberspachers cycle super low instead of switching off now to avoid having to use power to reignite each thermostat cycle so this curent draw would be lower again) . . . though of course, as you point out, this wont be 110v anyway so is irrelevant to the current conversion situation.

Me and my drummer 'The Bear' are off to play our first gig in the van on thursday, heading to the Storey Arms car park the night before to rehearse as our tradition has always been - its a big test for the van, if its a good first tour, much happiness will emanate and the bonding process will begin! Last motorhome was a biggie, called The Great White Wheel in deference to Moby Dick, this little beauty os black as the devil's nutting bag, and has been christened The Event Horizon accordingly :-)

Django-Wildheart wrote:

Thanks for being so meticulous in your reply WG - very much appreciated. I hadn't pondered if the fridge might not even be mains powered - but of course it may well not be . . . how do you reckon its best to check?

There should be a plate on it with its input voltage & current ratings- probably inside somewhere so it can be read without taking the van apart!

Quote :

If the mains is literally only supplying the 110v-12v charger then, which is certainly a feasible possibility in a camper this small what VA rating should my step down 240-120v transformer be in your opinion?

If you don't need it for the fridge I'd just replace the existing 110V battery charger with a 240V one, rather than buying a 240/110 transformer to power what's there.
You'll still need to know how much current you need to deliver but you can spec the charger to suit that.

Quote :

I am looking at getting an eberspacher D2 airtronic fitted too, and they have a current draw rating too - to operate the fuel pump and also the glow plugs when starting up (I understand that the newer eberspachers cycle super low instead of switching off now to avoid having to use power to reignite each thermostat cycle so this curent draw would be lower again) . . . though of course, as you point out, this wont be 110v anyway so is irrelevant to the current conversion situation.

...but would add to the 12V draw. It shouldn't be too hard to add up the current draw from the 12V appliances (you can put an ammeter on the leisure battery and switch everything on to get a baseline) add a little to that to allow for some headroom to charge the battery and for the current being higher at 14V (when you are hooked up and charging) than at ~12V when you are running on battery only.
Look for a charger that's designed to maintain charge AND run the appliances. You want to be able to run your 12V systems from Mains and maintain the battery without overcharging. Some devices are just designed to charge up the battery and then be disconnected.

Quote :

Me and my drummer 'The Bear' are off to play our first gig in the van on thursday, heading to the Storey Arms car park the night before to rehearse as our tradition has always been - its a big test for the van, if its a good first tour, much happiness will emanate and the bonding process will begin! Last motorhome was a biggie, called The Great White Wheel in deference to Moby Dick, this little beauty os black as the devil's nutting bag, and has been christened The Event Horizon accordingly :-)

Hah! :-)

Sounds great. Have fun!

Cheers,
W.

The fridge is 12v rated - so it seems that all that's needed is a charger that can condition batteries and supply enough juice to run a handful of lights too - the guys at the eberspacher diesel night night dealers have said that only a Zig unit can do this, but I'm not sure that's right . . . I'm now really tempted to just pop a step down transformer in line with the current charger which plainly worked well for years at exactly this job . . .

The eberspacher dealers I went to was Tanner Electrical in Cardiff, nice people, but I'm still a bit rocked back by their quote which is £1,295 supply and fit - PLUS VAT, which is £1,554 - their finger in the air for supply and fit of a D2 airtronic was "easily under £1000" when we spoke on the phone . . . looks like I'll have to shop around a bit then!

Just had another quote in from Lonsdale Bodybuilders in Cardiff much more reasonable at £895 (plus VAT unfortunately!) to supply and fit a D2 airtronic ebespacher diesel night heater, this quote included a timer which Tanner Electrical wanted another £60 + VAT for - pays to shop around obviously . . .
I also asked them to quote for supply and install of new leisure battery and they wanted £300 for battery and a split charging relay!! I've asked them to itemise that a little as it looks wildly high to me . . .

Hi,
Do you have or do you want a control panel with battery condition meter etc?

The Zig is a convenient way of combining a control panel and in some models a charger into a single unit, often with fuses, sometimes with an inverter control, too, I think. My van came with one that has a meter and a rocker switch to show state of either the leisure or starting batteries. I have a seperate charger- originally a 110V one and a step down transformer but when the 110V charger failed I replaced it with a 240V one (a P116, I think) as I didn't have any 110V kit.

You don't need a Zig, specifically, that's a brand name- but obviously you need a step-down of some sort so maybe they were just using the brand name loosely?

Depends how sophisticated you want to be and how professional you want it to look.

Cheers,
W.

I think that what I want is really quite simple, and in terms of how I'd like it to look I'd be happy if all I saw was the appliances and the switches that operate them and nothing else :-)

1. I have bays for two leisure batteries, one large one small - I'd like the best value per spend batteries for these battery bays. With gel and AGM options along with 'standard' lead acid, its not easy to decide what this points at tbh
2. I'd like the batteries to charge 'intelligently' from 240v mains hook up and from the alternator - can't work out if a single device will do this or if I need two (pretty sure that the van is already fitted with a switch/split charging relay as the electrics come alive in the back when the engine is running and switch off again when the ignition is off, and there are no leisure batteries at the moment)
3. When on mains hook up I'd like the batteries to charge and 'condition' while also supplying enough 12v power for a couple of lights and a fridge and an eberspacher D2 airtronic night heater as req'd
4. on mains hook up I'd like one 3 pin socket at 240v/13A

In terms of a unit to monitor battery condition, the truth is I'd like to plug in everything and then forget about it for 2-3 years as the kit does the conditioning and maintenance for me in the background . . . I guess for me, something of a minimalist at heart, this 'invisible functionality' is the most professional look I could hope for :-) I just need to know what the best items of kit are to achieve it for least outlay I guess . . .

I was looking at the Ctek 7000 but can't work out if it delivers the 'intelligent' charging from the alternator or just from the mains . . .

Hi,
Last point first- The Ctek-7000 does intelligent charging from the mains, the split-charging setup in the van should handle charging from the engine.

You probably only need one leisure battery. Having a second is handy in a motorhome if you want to be able to run your fridge for as long as possible without losing lights, fans, water-pumps etc if and when it drains its battery. This is probably excessive for your more modest needs.

With a leisure battery installed and connected to the charging relay (and/or the mains charger) you should get the "leisure" electrics to light up without switching on the van. I have a seperate switch on the dash that activates the whole lot, you might have something similar. The purpose of the charging relay/splitter setup is to make sure the starter batteries are not drained by the leisure electrics, so if this is installed and working then you shouldn't see any current draw from the starter battery when the fridge and lights are on.
I'm slightly concerned that someone has bypassed this instead of replacing the leisure batteries so that they can still use the leisure electrics, albeit at the risk of flattening the starter-battery. There should be a little nest of electrics somewhere with fuses and relays (possibly circuit-breakers and electronic switchgear) that connects the charging output of the alternator to the leisure battery but doesn't allow the starter battery to supply current to them.
Do you get leisure-lights/fridge in the back of the van whenever the ignition is on or only when the engine is turning the alternator?

There are several distinct functions needed to deliver what you want:
(0) A leisure battery(!)
(1) Split charging relay (as above)
(2) 12V power distribution from the leisure battery (switches and fuses to each component)
(3) Mains conversion to allow 12V charging and/or mains operation on 12V components
(4) Battery condition monitoring

[Some people would add an invertor to this list, so they can run mains stuff from 12V without hookup]
[That needs additional switching to redistribute the 240V power that's being produced ]

Some or all of these can be combined- that's what the "Zig" units do. If you're a non-specialist with a customer who wants some or all of this stuff, but doesn't know exactly what, then "You need a Zig" is a pretty good answer, as it'll almost certainly meet the customer's needs without you having to design a system!!!

It sounds like you probably have (1) already, but need to check, and maybe (2). You need (0) and want (3) but aren't too bothered about (4)...!

I think the Ctek will do what you want- if you run it in supply mode you should be able to use up to 7 Amps of stuff in your van, which ought to be enough for your fridge, lights and heater. It will also keep your battery topped up. If you want to charge phones, tablets etc then you can do so from the mains when hooked up or get a 12V car charger- try to avoid using an inverter to run a mains charger from 12V as it's pretty inefficient. You may want to ensure you have a "cigar lighter" socket fed from the leisure battery to achieve this.

You don't need a Gel battery or anything else fancy, just a decent quality leisure battery. Ideally you want enough capacity that you're unlikely to run it down beyond about half-charge or so, as complete discharge will shorten the life of the battery. If your typical electric draw is, say, 4 Amps, then an eight-hour stop without hookup will use 32Ah and you would half drain a 64Ah battery. A Saturday Morning to Sunday night park-up (36 hours) would use 144 Ah and hence take most of the juice from a 200Ah one- doing this regularly would shorten it's service life. You can see how this would get tricky if you use more current and hence why people want to keep an eye on their usage. Just in case you don't know, leaving the battery discharged (eg it was over half-drained and you only had a short drive home, so it's not been topped up) will also compromise the performance of the battery in the long run ("sulphation").
Both of these situations won't cause any short-term problems, but you will find that the performance of the battery deteriorates more quickly than it should if they happen regularly, so it's worth trying to avoid them if you can.

Hope this helps. I guess you need to confirm that you have a split-charge relay and sensible 12V power distribution, despite the slight complication of the extra battery box, and then drop in a leisure battery to confirm that it's all doing what you need. Then you can add the mains charger with reasonable confidence that it'll do what you want.

Cheers,
W.

Hi W, you've pretty much completely understood what I need here :-)

in answer to your question, the rear electrics only work when the engine is turning, so that could be via the split charging relay yes. This is however subject to my comments later regarding my own utterly stupid blunder which has set me back a whole way . . .

I was keen to make sure that the split charging relay from the alternator was not just 'flat charging' as I was anxious of the overcharging issue I've read about - if I need to install a new one the one recommended to me by Tayna.co.uk is
tayna.co,uk/Charge-Guard-Intelligent-Split-Charging-Battery-Management-System-200A-P7940
which seems a little pricey at £85 inc delivery given that a standard split charging relay is about £10 but perhaps this is what you pay for that extra 'intelligence' what do you think?

Also, since I last wrote, I have been an utter plonker, and in the interests of having some parked leisure electrics for tonight and the rehearsal with The Bear I first hooked up a Daewoo Matiz battery where the leisure was before, and seeing everything working sweetly decided to add in the extra 'reserve' of my Halfords battery pack - but instead of doing it properly I attached the jump leads to the terminals of the Daewoo battery . . . billows of acrid smoke from the interior of the van in seconds before I rapidly disconnected and now only one light working . . . looks like the whole leisure wiring loom will now have to be lifted and inspected/replaced - my partner says I shouldn;t blame myself because my intentions are good, I told her they don't have an intentions olympics . . . BOZO of the year.

Hi,
oops.


That shouldn't have happened, though, unless the battery pack is putting out way more than 12V or something? I would think it ought to have been safer to connect to the daewoo battery than not, as it would have provided a bit of "ballast" to keep the output of the battery pack at the right sort of level.

I wonder what cooked the wiring?

Anyway- if you are going to have to check it all at least you'll have the opportunity to understand where it all goes and what parts are in there. It sounds to me as if something wasn't set up quite as it ought to be, as there should have been a fuse somewhere to prevent precisely this sort of thing happening!

First question has to be: is your fridge still working? A new three-way 40litre one might be £350 or more!

Cheers,
W.

Its not a 3-way fridge actually, its just a 12v fridge so I'm pretty hopeful that the fuses will have protected that - my blunder was connecting the jump leads from the Halfords pack which I think gives out enough juice to start an engine . . . anyway, tomorrow at 7.30 am I taking the van to Lonsdale Coachworks and Body Builders and they have offered to sort it all out for me - or at least to quote to put it right - hope its not a horrible bill - if it is then yes, I'm going to be taking it all apart myself and learning how to use a multimeter at the age of 45 :-S

Hi,
Good luck!

It's not a three way now, but if you were going to replace it that's probably what you'd get.

The starter pack is capable of delivering lots of current to turn the engine but it will still be ~12V and it won't do so unless it's demanded by a high-current component (ie the starter motor).

I still can't see why that would have caused a problem.

Cheers,
W.

Just inside the cupboard under the sink there is a fresh water bottle. In that same cupboard up against the van wall is a plastic housed bulge - does this contain the trips/fuses for the mains hook up? Are japanese RCD/trips set to the same ampage as UK ones? They must have fitted mains style fuses somewhere surely?

Hi,
I don't know- depends on how your conversion was done (Do you know which company did it?).

I wouldn't trust Japanese spec switchgear with European Mains: It's not that it's likely to be badly engineered, just that the voltage is different (and the regulations unlikely to be the same).

It's possible that the RCDs are compatible- if so it should be clearly written on them. I'd not take anything for granted, though. I would guess that Japanese 110V leisure gear is likely to be aligned to the US market rather than the European one, as it is large and also 110V...

Photos might help but I think you're reaching the limits of my understanding of the topic... For the sake of an £80 UK source Mains installation kit I think I'd probably avoid taking any chances and replace anything that isn't clearly marked as suitable. If the stuff that's on there is IP44 "Commando" sockets, RCDs labelled as "110V-220V" and circuit breakers/isolators marked up as "110-220V" then it'll almost certainly be fine... If it's only labelled in Japanese or with 110V ratings then it'd be safer to replace it unless you can find someone that really knows what they are doing and can vouch for it!

Cheers,
W.

PS I'm a little wary of Mains electrics next to a water tank... electricity & water generally not being happy companions... Is the plastic bulge sealed?